instrument/commercial at same time
Question:
Is getting the instrument and commercial at the same time possible?…Since I am in no hurry I thought I could do both at the same
Certainly is possible, but the test requirements are diffferent. I suggest that you pursue them in parallel, spending time on one, then on the other. The skills acquired are complimentary. Being good at one also hones your skills in the other. But expect to take the written tests separately, make the preps for the flight/oral tests independently, and to take the flight tests separately. Sounds a little complex, but it should not bother a person with good piloting capabilities.. Ang.
Response:
I may have to wait for a windfall of money to pursue this…I wonder if I can get a student loan and write it off?!?!… Blue skies, St Stephen Ames PP-ASEL N16402 PA-28-180 My flying site: http://www.stephenames.com/flying/flying.html – Another part of my pre-flight passenger briefing – ‘Bathrooms are located at each end of the flight’ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You’re going to have to take at least a portion of the checkride in a complex aircraft as well. I didn’t see that part either, can you refer me… The 10 hours is covered under 61.129(i)(3)(ii). It does not actually use the word "Complex," but refers to an airplane with retractable gear, flaps, and a controllable propeller. The portion (or entirety) of the practical test taking place in such an aircraft is covered in the FAA Practical Test Standards. You definitely need a copy of the PTS for any certificate or rating you’re pursuing. If you’d like to save a couple bucks for now, you can download the Commercial PTS from the FAA online: http://www.fedworld.gov/pub/faa-att/pts_com1.pdf Here’s the relvant excerpt, in any case: Aircraft and Equipment Required for the Practical Test The commercial pilot applicant is required by 14 CFR part 61 section 61.45 to provide an airworthy, certificated aircraft for use during the practical test. This section further requires that the aircraft: 1. have fully functioning dual controls except as provided in this CFR Section; 2. be capable of performing ALL appropriate TASKS for the commercial pilot certificate or rating and have no operating limitations that prohibit the performance of those TASKS; and 3. must be a complex airplane furnished by the applicant for the performance of takeoffs, landings, and appropriate emergency procedures. A complex landplane is one having retractable landing gear, flaps, and controllable propeller. A complex seaplane is one having flaps and controllable propeller. This is suddenly getting expensive…Fly safe… There’s an old joke… How much money does it take to fly? All of it. 
Good luck. — Garner R. Miller, CFII/MEI Pilot, US Airways Express, Portland, ME http://www.netstreet.net/~garner/ Please don’t e-mail me a copy of your usenet reply.
Response:
You’re going to have to take at least a portion of the checkride in a complex aircraft as well. I didn’t see that part either, can you refer me…
The 10 hours is covered under 61.129(i)(3)(ii). It does not actually use the word "Complex," but refers to an airplane with retractable gear, flaps, and a controllable propeller. The portion (or entirety) of the practical test taking place in such an aircraft is covered in the FAA Practical Test Standards. You definitely need a copy of the PTS for any certificate or rating you’re pursuing. If you’d like to save a couple bucks for now, you can download the Commercial PTS from the FAA online: http://www.fedworld.gov/pub/faa-att/pts_com1.pdf Here’s the relvant excerpt, in any case: Aircraft and Equipment Required for the Practical Test The commercial pilot applicant is required by 14 CFR part 61 section 61.45 to provide an airworthy, certificated aircraft for use during the practical test. This section further requires that the aircraft: 1. have fully functioning dual controls except as provided in this CFR Section; 2. be capable of performing ALL appropriate TASKS for the commercial pilot certificate or rating and have no operating limitations that prohibit the performance of those TASKS; and 3. must be a complex airplane furnished by the applicant for the performance of takeoffs, landings, and appropriate emergency procedures. A complex landplane is one having retractable landing gear, flaps, and controllable propeller. A complex seaplane is one having flaps and controllable propeller. This is suddenly getting expensive…Fly safe…
There’s an old joke… How much money does it take to fly? All of it. Good luck. — Garner R. Miller, CFII/MEI Pilot, US Airways Express, Portland, ME http://www.netstreet.net/~garner/ Please don’t e-mail me a copy of your usenet reply.
Response:
Here is my next hurdle…Is there any way around the 10hrs of complex time with a CFI?
Nope. That’s part of the whole commercial experience. And it’s required by regulation. Can’t get around it. You’re going to have to take at least a portion of the checkride in a complex aircraft as well. —- Pilots are just plane people with a different air about them.
Response:
Here is my next hurdle…Is there any way around the 10hrs of complex time with a CFI? Nope. That’s part of the whole commercial experience. And it’s required by regulation. Can’t get around it. You’re going to have to take at least a portion of the checkride in a complex aircraft as well.
I didn’t see that part either, can you refer me…This is suddenly getting expensive…Fly safe… Blue skies, St Stephen Ames PP-ASEL N16402 PA-28-180 My flying site: http://www.stephenames.com/flying/flying.html – Another part of my pre-flight passenger briefing – ‘Bathrooms are located at each end of the flight’
Response:
Is getting the instrument and commercial at the same time possible?…Since I am in no hurry I thought I could do both at the same time…If so what would I need to do different to not have to repeat items(i.e. long x/c’s)…Thanx in advance…
Although the experience requirements may look similar, it doesn’t make too much sense to combine the two. The skills required are opposite extremes. Commercial is highly focused on developing your visual skills. IFR is focused on guages and dial. Combing the two and training for the checkride level proficiency could be difficult. Not that it can’t be done. If you can manage it, then all the better for you. Also, you cannot count the IFR x-c for the commercial cross-country. Although the FAR is vague about this, the official word seems to be that you cannot count one flight for two different rating requirements. This was clarified in on one of the FAA’s regulatory support division web page. — Andrew Sarangan CP-ASEL-IA http://lights.chtm.unm.edu/~sarangan/aviation
Response:
Here is my next hurdle…Is there any way around the 10hrs of complex time with a CFI?…That seems to be the most expensive part of the whole commercial set of requirements if you don’t own a complex aircraft…I will either have to rent at $70-90/hr plus an instructor for 10hrs, or find someone willing to ride back seat for 10hrs of flying…Hmmm, would CFII have to sit in front seat?…Fly safe… Blue skies, St Stephen Ames PP-ASEL N16402 PA-28-180 My flying site: http://www.stephenames.com/flying/flying.html – Another part of my pre-flight passenger briefing – ‘Bathrooms are located at each end of the flight’ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is getting the instrument and commercial at the same time possible?…Since I am in no hurry I thought I could do both at the same time…If so what would I need to do different to not have to repeat items(i.e. long x/c’s)…Thanx in advance… — Yes, it is possible to get both the instrument and commercial at the same time. It is especially useful to do this if you are doing your training under part 141. Under part 141, your flight training is based on the number of hours in a course, unlike part 61 where your aeronautical experience is based on your total hours. So, under part 141, you have to be eligible for enrollment in the flight portion of the training and you have to log the number of hours to meet the requirements of that course. The instrument rating requires 35 hours of instrument training and the commercial rating requires 120 hours of various types of flight training. By being concurrently enrolled in both an instrument rating course and a commercial course, you can use any instrument training hours over 35 to count towards the 120 hours of training for the commercial. Also, any time not under the hood doesn’t count toward the 35 hours of instrument time, but it does count toward the 120 hours for the commercial. So, if it takes your 50 hours to get your IA of which 42 hours are instrument training and 8 hours are not, you can count 7 hours of the instrument training and the other 8 hours toward the 120 hours for the commercial. Since you are doing your training under part 61, there really isn’t a concept of getting both at the same time. (Or, since the commercial is based on total time, you can argue that you have been working on your commercial from your very first lesson.) Hope this helps, Hobbes Before you buy.
Response:
Also noticed that not too much of the requirements overlapped…Being a current instrument student, I’m hoping at least the required 10hrs of instrument training will…
Yep. That works. —- Pilots are just plane people with a different air about them.
Response:
Is getting the instrument and commercial at the same time possible?…Since I am in no hurry I thought I could do both at the same time…If so what would I need to do different to not have to repeat items(i.e. long x/c’s)…Thanx in advance… —
Yes, it is possible to get both the instrument and commercial at the same time. It is especially useful to do this if you are doing your training under part 141. Under part 141, your flight training is based on the number of hours in a course, unlike part 61 where your aeronautical experience is based on your total hours. So, under part 141, you have to be eligible for enrollment in the flight portion of the training and you have to log the number of hours to meet the requirements of that course. The instrument rating requires 35 hours of instrument training and the commercial rating requires 120 hours of various types of flight training. By being concurrently enrolled in both an instrument rating course and a commercial course, you can use any instrument training hours over 35 to count towards the 120 hours of training for the commercial. Also, any time not under the hood doesn’t count toward the 35 hours of instrument time, but it does count toward the 120 hours for the commercial. So, if it takes your 50 hours to get your IA of which 42 hours are instrument training and 8 hours are not, you can count 7 hours of the instrument training and the other 8 hours toward the 120 hours for the commercial. Since you are doing your training under part 61, there really isn’t a concept of getting both at the same time. (Or, since the commercial is based on total time, you can argue that you have been working on your commercial from your very first lesson.) Hope this helps, Hobbes Before you buy.
Response:
All opinions are welcome and appreciated, that’s why I asked this question here…The more I looked into and wrote downt he requirements for each I noticed that the comm. is all VFR manuevers and that there is very little overlap…I will probably still work on the 2 but my emphasis is on the instrument rating at this point…Thanx again…Fly safe… Blue skies, St Stephen Ames PP-ASEL N16402 PA-28-180 My flying site: http://www.stephenames.com/flying/flying.html – Another part of my pre-flight passenger briefing – ‘Bathrooms are located at each end of the flight’ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think it makes more sense to separate the two. Doing the Instrument rating first is "more natural," as the Commercial has a higher total-hours prerequisite. Combining the two might save you a few total hours, but I expect that the leaning curves for both would be lengthened, as the manoevers and flight environment are so different. Also, the Commercial deals with VFR "head up and looking outside" manoevers, and emphasizes smooth control of the aircraft over a wide range of attitude and airspeeds. I think most would find the Commrcial easier after the additional flight experience gained in "flying by the numbers" during the Instrument training. Just my opinion, of course. :-) I think my biggest problem will be getting the necessary complex training time…I thought it just had to be hours in a complex aircraft, that would be easier to arrange than time and a CFI being there…Home FBO has no complex aircraft…May need to go utside for this part of commercial…Also noticed that not too much of the requirements overlapped…Being a current instrument student, I’m hoping at least the required 10hrs of instrument training will…Fly safe… Blue skies, St Stephen Ames PP-ASEL N16402 PA-28-180 My flying site: http://www.stephenames.com/flying/flying.html – Another part of my pre-flight passenger briefing – ’Bathrooms are located at each end of the flight’ Is getting the instrument and commercial at the same time possible? Sure, a lot of 141 schools have combined commercial/instrument programs. Jepp even publishes a syllabus for that. It is possible to be enrolled in a commercial/instrument program, but it’s essentially just a combination of a commercial course and an instrument course. The instrument course is one portion of the commercial/instrument syllabus. There really isn’t any overlap between the two. Each has its own training requirements. The instrument course requires instrument cross country flights, and the commercial course (141 or 61) requires four hours of *VFR* cross country flights. —- Pilots are just plane people with a different air about them. * . * * COMM-ASEL (*)/ ( GAI ) * * C-172P N51078 o/ o Gaithersburg, Maryland * * . *
Response:
Sure, a lot of 141 schools have combined commercial/instrument programs. Jepp even publishes a syllabus for that.
Except the syllabus does instrument first, then commercial. Cloudy Skies! Timothy Metzinger Private Pilot – ASEL – IA!!!! AOPA Project Pilot Mentor DOD # 1854 ‘82 Virago 750 – "Siobhan" Cessnas, Tampicos, Tobagos, and Trinidads at FDK
Response:
I think it makes more sense to separate the two. Doing the Instrument rating first is "more natural," as the Commercial has a higher total-hours prerequisite. Combining the two might save you a few total hours, but I expect that the leaning curves for both would be lengthened, as the manoevers and flight environment are so different. Also, the Commercial deals with VFR "head up and looking outside" manoevers, and emphasizes smooth control of the aircraft over a wide range of attitude and airspeeds. I think most would find the Commrcial easier after the additional flight experience gained in "flying by the numbers" during the Instrument training. Just my opinion, of course. :-) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think my biggest problem will be getting the necessary complex training time…I thought it just had to be hours in a complex aircraft, that would be easier to arrange than time and a CFI being there…Home FBO has no complex aircraft…May need to go utside for this part of commercial…Also noticed that not too much of the requirements overlapped…Being a current instrument student, I’m hoping at least the required 10hrs of instrument training will…Fly safe… Blue skies, St Stephen Ames PP-ASEL N16402 PA-28-180 My flying site: http://www.stephenames.com/flying/flying.html - Another part of my pre-flight passenger briefing – ’Bathrooms are located at each end of the flight’ Is getting the instrument and commercial at the same time possible? Sure, a lot of 141 schools have combined commercial/instrument programs. Jepp even publishes a syllabus for that. It is possible to be enrolled in a commercial/instrument program, but it’s essentially just a combination of a commercial course and an instrument course. The instrument course is one portion of the commercial/instrument syllabus. There really isn’t any overlap between the two. Each has its own training requirements. The instrument course requires instrument cross country flights, and the commercial course (141 or 61) requires four hours of *VFR* cross country flights. —- Pilots are just plane people with a different air about them.
* . * * COMM-ASEL (*)/ ( GAI ) * * C-172P N51078 o/ o Gaithersburg, Maryland * * . *
Response:
I think my biggest problem will be getting the necessary complex training time…I thought it just had to be hours in a complex aircraft, that would be easier to arrange than time and a CFI being there…Home FBO has no complex aircraft…May need to go utside for this part of commercial…Also noticed that not too much of the requirements overlapped…Being a current instrument student, I’m hoping at least the required 10hrs of instrument training will…Fly safe… Blue skies, St Stephen Ames PP-ASEL N16402 PA-28-180 My flying site: http://www.stephenames.com/flying/flying.html – Another part of my pre-flight passenger briefing – ‘Bathrooms are located at each end of the flight’ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is getting the instrument and commercial at the same time possible? Sure, a lot of 141 schools have combined commercial/instrument programs. Jepp even publishes a syllabus for that. It is possible to be enrolled in a commercial/instrument program, but it’s essentially just a combination of a commercial course and an instrument course. The instrument course is one portion of the commercial/instrument syllabus. There really isn’t any overlap between the two. Each has its own training requirements. The instrument course requires instrument cross country flights, and the commercial course (141 or 61) requires four hours of *VFR* cross country flights. —- Pilots are just plane people with a different air about them.
Response:
Is getting the instrument and commercial at the same time possible?…Since I am in no hurry I thought I could do both at the same time…If so what would I need to do different to not have to repeat items(i.e. long x/c’s)…Thanx in advance… —
Sure, a lot of 141 schools have combined commercial/instrument programs. Jepp even publishes a syllabus for that.
Response:
Is getting the instrument and commercial at the same time possible? Sure, a lot of 141 schools have combined commercial/instrument programs. Jepp even publishes a syllabus for that.
It is possible to be enrolled in a commercial/instrument program, but it’s essentially just a combination of a commercial course and an instrument course. The instrument course is one portion of the commercial/instrument syllabus. There really isn’t any overlap between the two. Each has its own training requirements. The instrument course requires instrument cross country flights, and the commercial course (141 or 61) requires four hours of *VFR* cross country flights. —- Pilots are just plane people with a different air about them.
Response:
Is getting the instrument and commercial at the same time possible?…Since I am in no hurry I thought I could do both at the same time…If so what would I need to do different to not have to repeat items(i.e. long x/c’s)…Thanx in advance… — Blue skies, St Stephen Ames PP-ASEL N16402 PA-28-180 My flying site: http://www.stephenames.com/flying/flying.html – Another part of my pre-flight passenger briefing – ‘Bathrooms are located at each end of the flight’
