1-g roll – part II
Question:
[snip] Just a friendly reminder for any students out there who have suddenly acquired an unexplainable itch since reading all this stuff we’ve been writing lately about aerobatics!!!! — :-)))
Like me! Now how do I tell wifey I want to start flying upside down as well as the "regular" way? 
Steve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dudley A. Henriques International Fighter Pilots Fellowship Commercial Pilot/CFI/Retired
Response:
[snip] Just a friendly reminder for any students out there who have suddenly acquired an unexplainable itch since reading all this stuff we’ve been writing lately about aerobatics!!!! — :-))) Like me! Now how do I tell wifey I want to start flying upside down as well as the "regular" way?
Do what I did! Just tell her you’re still right side up; it’s just that you’re not flying in Australia today! :-) DAH
Response:
I’ve done hammerheads, rolls, loops, etc with the 737 on MSFS. Do you think an actual 737 could handle that?
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve seen stills of that, It was a barrell roll. Just for fun after your previous one-g question I tried it out on my Fly cessna 172 simulator. I’m a brand new private pilot. I tried several times and I couldn’t do an aileron spin on the simulator without either a plus or negative G overstress warning coming on and redlining the airspeed. While I’m not sure how accurate the simulators is, the fact I couldn’t do one on the computer suggests I’ll not try one for real! Gord Clark Good morning everyone, Thanks for everyone who responded to my 1-g roll question. After realizing that I still had trouble with steep turns, I’ve given up the idea of attempting such a feat. Seriously though, the question came up in my mind after my wing design prof spoke earlier that day of the 707 prototype doing one of those 1-g rolls during a demonstration flight…Is there any footage available on the web? Speaking of footage, is there a site with aerobatics clips and such? Or even spin-testing? Alex Ly
Response:
Thanks for everyone who responded to my 1-g roll question. How did the term "1g roll" ever get started? For Pete’s sake, Straight-and-Level is "1g" flight!
GETTING UP ON THE SOAPBOX I, for one, would like to expunge this whole concept of a "1g roll" from aviation…it simply doesn’t exist. However, it has a life of it’s own, partially because it’s somehow never defined. There are essentially 4 types of rolls in aerobatics. I realize that some of the nomenclature I will be using may be different from those used by others (such as the military community). However, these are ones generally employed in the competition aerobatics community. These are also the ones that Dudley seems to use, so there can be continuity on this newgroup. None of the 4 rolls can be *completely* flown at 1 g. Two of them have segments that can be flown at 1 g and are best described as "positive g" (NOT "1g") maneuvers. 1) Aileron Roll – Pull to attitude above horizon (1g), unload stick, roll allowing nose to drop on its own (g can vary, but easily done at 1 g), pull up from nose down attitude at completion (1g). 2) Barrel Roll – Combination of loop and roll, very well described here earlier by Dudley. Entry and exit always require 1g. Roll plus loop segment most easily done at 1g. Can be done at 1 g, if finessed. The above are the only possible candidates for that fabled "1 g roll" and they don’t really qualify completely. 3) Slow roll – The object is to maintain altitude during the roll. Requires hefty top rudder on knife edge and more push than the novice dreams of when inverted. This is never 1g. 4) Snap roll – An autorotation initiated at an airspeed higher than the 1 g stall speed (if from level flight). Again, this is never a 1 g maneuver. BTW, only the latter two are done in competition. I personally use the first two as introductions to aerobatics for passengers or novice pilots. After the first couple of lessons, it’s straight to slow rolls and extensive inverted flight. Jim
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks for everyone who responded to my 1-g roll question. How did the term "1g roll" ever get started? For Pete’s sake, Straight-and-Level is "1g" flight! GETTING UP ON THE SOAPBOX I, for one, would like to expunge this whole concept of a "1g roll" from aviation…it simply doesn’t exist. However, it has a life of it’s own, partially because it’s somehow never defined. There are essentially 4 types of rolls in aerobatics. I realize that some of the nomenclature I will be using may be different from those used by others (such as the military community). However, these are ones generally employed in the competition aerobatics community. These are also the ones that Dudley seems to use, so there can be continuity on this newgroup. None of the 4 rolls can be *completely* flown at 1 g. Two of them have segments that can be flown at 1 g and are best described as "positive g" (NOT "1g") maneuvers. 1) Aileron Roll – Pull to attitude above horizon (1g), unload stick, roll allowing nose to drop on its own (g can vary, but easily done at 1 g), pull up from nose down attitude at completion (1g). 2) Barrel Roll – Combination of loop and roll, very well described here earlier by Dudley. Entry and exit always require 1g. Roll plus loop segment most easily done at 1g. Can be done at 1 g, if finessed. The above are the only possible candidates for that fabled "1 g roll" and they don’t really qualify completely. 3) Slow roll – The object is to maintain altitude during the roll. Requires hefty top rudder on knife edge and more push than the novice dreams of when inverted. This is never 1g. 4) Snap roll – An autorotation initiated at an airspeed higher than the 1 g stall speed (if from level flight). Again, this is never a 1 g maneuver. BTW, only the latter two are done in competition. I personally use the first two as introductions to aerobatics for passengers or novice pilots. After the first couple of lessons, it’s straight to slow rolls and extensive inverted flight. Jim
Excellent post! I would only add a point of interest from the military standpoint that as pilots transition into very fast high performance airplanes like the T38 for example, the roll rates are so high that aileron rolls begin to take on a new meaning. You can fly the 38 in aerobatics all day long without ever taking your feet off the floor. At .9 mach, you can lay a T38 over on it’s back with hard aileron and catch it there with just a hair of forward stick for a perfect half roll to inverted.[ but you’ve got to be quick!!!!!! I agree with Jim that acro students should treat aileron rolls as intro fun for the first ten minutes, then leave them behind and begin slow roll training. Barrel rolls are also fun, but of no use to pilots interested in competition. Even in professional air show demonstration flying, I never used aileron rolls. Most demonstration pilots flying precision acro won’t use barrel rolls during a demo. I used them in the Mustang, but never in the Pitts. Point of note about aileron rolls! Many…..many pilots have been killed trying to perform an aileron roll after a buzz job. They make a pass at high speed, then pull and without setting up, initiate an aileron roll. Because they are not using top rudder and forward stick past knife edge to inverted, the roll begins to find it’s own arc on the longitudinal axis of the airplane. As decaying airspeed couples with drag, the inside rudder they used to initiate the roll begins to pull the nose down past the first knife edge. This widens the natural arc of the roll. Even if the inside rudder is released at this point, the damage has already been done. Considering a light aircraft with the roll rate of a Citabria, or even a Decathlon, the resulting dishout can be, and often is fatal! Just a friendly reminder for any students out there who have suddenly acquired an unexplainable itch since reading all this stuff we’ve been writing lately about aerobatics!!!! — :-))) Dudley A. Henriques International Fighter Pilots Fellowship Commercial Pilot/CFI/Retired
Response:
Good morning everyone, Thanks for everyone who responded to my 1-g roll question. After realizing that I still had trouble with steep turns, I’ve given up the idea of attempting such a feat. Seriously though, the question came up in my mind after my wing design prof spoke earlier that day of the 707 prototype doing one of those 1-g rolls during a demonstration flight…Is there any footage available on the web? Speaking of footage, is there a site with aerobatics clips and such? Or even spin-testing? Alex Ly
Response:
http://www.bulldogairshows.com/bdas1/bulldog/m1999.htm — HECTOP PP-ASEL-IA http://www.maxho.com maxho_at_maxho.com
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Good morning everyone, Thanks for everyone who responded to my 1-g roll question. After realizing that I still had trouble with steep turns, I’ve given up the idea of attempting such a feat. Seriously though, the question came up in my mind after my wing design prof spoke earlier that day of the 707 prototype doing one of those 1-g rolls during a demonstration flight…Is there any footage available on the web? Speaking of footage, is there a site with aerobatics clips and such? Or even spin-testing? Alex Ly
Response:
Thanks for everyone who responded to my 1-g roll question.
How did the term "1g roll" ever get started? For Pete’s sake, Straight-and-Level is "1g" flight! Seriously though, the question came up in my mind after my wing design prof spoke earlier that day of the 707 prototype doing one of those 1-g rolls during a demonstration flight…Is there any footage available on the web?
I have the 707 roll digitized on my hard drive but it’s an 80 MB mpeg2 file and it certainly wasn’t done at "1g". Bob Moore
Response:
There is a picture of a B-52 doing a 1-g roll. Unfortunately, the ground impacted the nose before he made the maneuver complete. Alex, go get some real acro training in a bird designed for acro, with a competent Acro CFI. Leave this fantasy of rolling your 172 alone, or you will die. Good morning everyone, Thanks for everyone who responded to my 1-g roll question. After realizing that I still had trouble with steep turns, I’ve given up the idea of attempting such a feat. Seriously though, the question came up in my mind after my wing design prof spoke earlier that day of the 707 prototype doing one of those 1-g rolls during a demonstration flight…Is there any footage available on the web? Speaking of footage, is there a site with aerobatics clips and such? Or even spin-testing? Alex Ly
Response:
a competent Acro CFI. Leave this fantasy of rolling your 172 alone, or you will die.
I would be so radical about it, so you gonna roll a 172 at 5,000′, so you gonna (and if) kill the engine, so you gonna do a PTS engine out landing maneuver if you were smart enough to do it within gliding distance to a field. It’s not approved, it’s irresponsible the least, but it’s not necessarily gonna get you killed, a 172 can’t take a lot more abuse than you can imagine, that’s why they last so long on school and rental lines. — HECTOP PP-ASEL-IA http://www.maxho.com maxho_at_maxho.com
Response:
There is a picture of a B-52 doing a 1-g roll. Unfortunately, the ground impacted the nose before he made the maneuver complete.
I wouldn’t be so radical about it, so you gonna roll a 172 at 5,000′, so you gonna (and if) kill the engine, so you gonna do a PTS engine-out landing maneuver if you were smart enough to do it within gliding distance to a field. It’s not approved, it’s irresponsible the least, but it’s not necessarily gonna get you killed, a 172 can’t take a lot more abuse than you can imagine, that’s why they last so long on school and rental lines. — HECTOP PP-ASEL-IA http://www.maxho.com maxho_at_maxho.com
Response:
I’ve seen stills of that, It was a barrell roll. Just for fun after your previous one-g question I tried it out on my Fly cessna 172 simulator. I’m a brand new private pilot. I tried several times and I couldn’t do an aileron spin on the simulator without either a plus or negative G overstress warning coming on and redlining the airspeed. While I’m not sure how accurate the simulators is, the fact I couldn’t do one on the computer suggests I’ll not try one for real! Gord Clark – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Good morning everyone, Thanks for everyone who responded to my 1-g roll question. After realizing that I still had trouble with steep turns, I’ve given up the idea of attempting such a feat. Seriously though, the question came up in my mind after my wing design prof spoke earlier that day of the 707 prototype doing one of those 1-g rolls during a demonstration flight…Is there any footage available on the web? Speaking of footage, is there a site with aerobatics clips and such? Or even spin-testing? Alex Ly
Response:
There is a picture of a B-52 doing a 1-g roll. Unfortunately, the ground impacted the nose before he made the maneuver complete. Alex, go get some real acro training in a bird designed for acro, with a competent Acro CFI.
Awww, geez, how could you go and recommend ACROCFI to someone. Next thing you know, we’ll have two people going and posting nonsensical gibberish to the newsgroup. "Now the I’ve been ELMed with the T43 MLP GRM ELM course, I feel sure that I can 1GR the 172 like the B52. I am a doer not a chair GRM pilot". John
Response:
There is a picture of a B-52 doing a 1-g roll. Unfortunately, the ground impacted the nose before he made the maneuver complete.
http://www.crm-devel.org/resources/paper/darkblue/darkblue.htm
Response:
Can you post it to the alt.binaries.multimedia.aviaton newsgroup? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I have the 707 roll digitized on my hard drive but it’s an 80 MB mpeg2 file and it certainly wasn’t done at "1g". Bob Moore
Response:
Can you post it to the alt.binaries.multimedia.aviaton newsgroup?
I’ll try…I’ll post a note if I succeed. Bob
Response:
There is a picture of a B-52 doing a 1-g roll. Unfortunately, the ground impacted the nose before he made the maneuver complete. http://www.crm-devel.org/resources/paper/darkblue/darkblue.htm
This was NOT a 1-g roll. This was a very steep turn at very low altitude. The aircraft rolled past vertical. The left wing tip was never higher than the tower. Fidel (I was there when it happened and had to go digging through the wreck three days after the crash)
Response:
Alex, go get some real acro training in a bird designed for acro, with a competent Acro CFI.
But, for gosh-sakes, not with AcroCFI. Blind leading the blind is not an acceptable form of acrobatic training (no offense, Alex). — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180
Response:
I’ve seen stills of that, It was a barrell roll. Just for fun after your previous one-g question I tried it out on my Fly cessna 172 simulator.
I’ve rolled the 182 in FS2k several times. The problem you’re probably running into is the way trim is modelled in PC flight simulators. Since they expect the control column to be spring-centered, adjusting the trim doesn’t relive the pressure (it can’t, without force feedback), it just changes the center position. When you release the elevator pressure and start the roll, the low rate of roll (I’d guess about 180 deg/sec) leaves you inverted for longer than you’d like. During that time, the high angle of incidence on the wings is now pointed down, and the elevator is actually pulled back a bit (by the trim mechanism) and you are on your way to a split-S. In fact, I’ve been unable to maintain inverted flight in the 182 in FS2k without significant trim adjustment, since otherwise I don’t have enough travel on the yoke. It’s a little easier to roll with rudder pedals since you can "step on the sky" and keep the nose high as you go through 90 degrees. And you need rudder pedals for doing hammerheads in front of the Statue of Liberty anyway… — Ben Jackson http://www.ben.com/
