heads up!

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – | | | Seem to recall there was a heads up from one our team for a TV show tonight | but can’t find it, anyone else know of it? or I am I in dream land?? | | Spitfire Ace, 2030 hrs ABC | Brian | | Hope it improves,  a bit of a disappointment so far.

Some of the romanticism(??) was a tad cloying perhaps, but overall an enjoyable watch. I also learnt a few things as well. Somehow "achtung, achtung Shrew" doesn’t have the same sort of ring to it! rb

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – | | .. | Seem to recall there was a heads up from one our team for a TV show tonight | but can’t find it, anyone else know of it? or I am I in dream land?? | | Spitfire Ace, 2030 hrs ABC | Brian | | Hope it improves,  a bit of a disappointment so far. Some of the romanticism(??) was a tad cloying perhaps, but overall an enjoyable watch. I also learnt a few things as well. Somehow "achtung, achtung Shrew" doesn’t have the same sort of ring to it! rb

Try and get a German to say "Shrew" – it may well have been a good war tactic for the British to name the plane "Shrew". "Achtung achtung shoo, sroo, soo donna an bltzen!!! Britischer! ach too late…" <sounds of 303 rounds hitting /viz <try and get any northern European to say "squirrel" – quite funny!

Response:

| ||| message ||||

|||| ||| ||| .. |||| Seem to recall there was a heads up from one our team for a TV |||| show tonight but can’t find it, anyone else know of it? or I am I |||| in dream land?? |||| |||| Spitfire Ace, 2030 hrs ABC |||| Brian |||| |||| ||| ||| ||| ||| Hope it improves,  a bit of a disappointment so far. ||| ||| ||| ||| ||| || Some of the romanticism(??) was a tad cloying perhaps, but overall an || enjoyable watch. I also learnt a few things as well. || Somehow "achtung, achtung Shrew" doesn’t have the same sort of ring || to it! || || rb | | Try and get a German to say "Shrew" – it may well have been a good war | tactic for the British to name the plane "Shrew". | | "Achtung achtung shoo, sroo, soo donna an bltzen!!! Britischer! ach | too late…" <sounds of 303 rounds hitting | | /viz "Shrew fly,  don’t bother me " — Cheers Dave Kearton

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Dave Kearton" <dkearton.

Passenger pics from Toronto Airfrance

Question:

Sylvia said…. Perhaps one needs to accept that people do not behave very rationally in such situations. After all, most people have no experience of being in an accident. The crew can shout "LEAVE YOUR HAND LUGGAGE BEHIND", but

As a part of my job, I have to regularly go through emergency response training, which includes the use of BA in smoke/fire environments. I would imagine that an aircraft, having just pranged like this A340 did, would become a similar environment – dark, smokey, cramped and lots of people suddenly to be wanting to be somewhere else. I’m surprised that the AF pax were all safely evacuated. Anything that facilitates the quick exit from the cabin without causing panic has to be the main aim of the exercise. If the pax want to grab their carryons, then let ‘em. Other than that, the best that the crew can do is to calmly direct them to the escape exits.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Missed that one. Are you seriously suggesting rolling a 767? Leaving aside the views of the airline, the insurers, the aviation authority, the manufacturer, and indeed anyone who’s remotely sane, is there a good reason this cannot be done successfully, without damaging the aircraft? Sylvia. Other than it is the one thing a Simulator won’t let you do (because it cannot) Why can’t it? It’s not as if it has to simulate negative g. Sylvia.

The simulator is a mechnical device with gimbal limits, and very simply, there simply is no way to turn the cab upside down on the hydraulic struts that support it.

Response:

Petzl said…. An uncle of mine Evan Mackey flew spitfires (WWII) and he once said to me that the RAF disallowed full Victory Rolls but (sort of) allowed similar (Wing Waggling?) as a replacement gesture as it was (sort of) becoming compulsory (peer pressure) for returning flyer’s to do Victory Rolls.

I recall reading about this in Douglas Bader’s bio, "Reach for the Sky". He banned his pilots from doing victory rolls, as he remembers a pic of a battle scarred bi-plane breaking up in mid air. The argument against that was that such aircraft, being made of wood and fabric, were lucky not to fall apart during normal flight. Whereas, the more modern and robust Spitfires and Hurricanes were somewhat less likely to suffer such airframe damage.

Response:

Sylvia said…. Missed that one. Are you seriously suggesting rolling a 767? Leaving aside the views of the airline, the insurers, the aviation authority, the manufacturer, and indeed anyone who’s remotely sane, is there a good reason this cannot be done successfully, without damaging the aircraft?

I remember watching a show in the History Channel about Boeing’s first B707 test flight. They had a photo taken from inside the cabin looking out through a window at the wing. It showed the ground on the other side of the wing to the engines…. From memory, it was the first and only time that a 4 engined jet did a roll. Of course, your average pax who thinks that disaster is imminent because of a routine go around would not appreciate being a part of an aerobatic maneuvre (although I reckon it’d be a ball tearer….)

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Missed that one. Are you seriously suggesting rolling a 767? Leaving aside the views of the airline, the insurers, the aviation authority, the manufacturer, and indeed anyone who’s remotely sane, is there a good reason this cannot be done successfully, without damaging the aircraft? Sylvia. Other than it is the one thing a Simulator won’t let you do (because it cannot) , if you are careful (as Tex Johnson was when he did it with the Dash-80 and maintained a positive 1G load at all times), it obviously can be done. Sure you can barrel roll the sims. They can’t emulate the real motions involved, but the instruments handle it perfectly well. They regularly end up in very extreme attitudes. For what it’s worth you can’t barrel roll anything, whilst maintaining 1G. If there is nose motion involved, then  the G loading will have to be greater than 1G. JB

Wonder what passengers would pay t be in a 767 victory and or barrel roll? Russians are selling fighter plane trips as are Camden Petzl — SECURE YOUR WINDOWS COMPUTER NOW!! <http://v4.windowsupdate.microsoft.com/en/default.asp Keep Windows UPDATED <http://free.grisoft.com/freeweb.php/doc/2/lng/us/tpl/v5 AVG 7.0 Free Edition" Anti-Virus <http://www.microsoft.com/athome/security/spyware/software/default.mspx Check your computer for "SpyWare" (free MS Product) <http://www.zonelabs.com/ a good firewall for windows(free version available) <http://www.password-depot.com/news/v2.htm Use a Password Saver on USB removable drive to store passwords

Response:

Missed that one. Are you seriously suggesting rolling a 767? Leaving aside the views of the airline, the insurers, the aviation authority, the manufacturer, and indeed anyone who’s remotely sane, is there a good reason this cannot be done successfully, without damaging the aircraft? Sylvia.

There is some good footage of Boeing’s 707 test flight doing just that  :)

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Missed that one. Are you seriously suggesting rolling a 767? Leaving aside the views of the airline, the insurers, the aviation authority, the manufacturer, and indeed anyone who’s remotely sane, is there a good reason this cannot be done successfully, without damaging the aircraft? Sylvia. No, but Pretzel doesn’t know that. JB

Well time to educate the little man – or fuel his conspiracy theories FedEx Flight 705 in 1994 (google it) – after a hijack attempt by a nutter the captain barrel rolled the aircraft (a DC10) several times to help overpower the hijacker. Yup they can do it, though in this case the plane was somewhat second hand by the time they got to the ground… /viz

Response:

<snip …….if you are careful (as Tex Johnson was when he did it with the Dash-80 and maintained a positive 1G load at all times), it obviously can be done.

I saw a pic in a book that someone on board took while that happened.  What looks like the sky is actually a lake :-p  Would love to be in a heavy when someone actually tried a roll (with a very skilled pilot of course).  I’d reckon it’d be a hoot!!!! duffo21

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This dates back some years (2000) when I noted some low flying 767 ansett aircraft (about 1500 feet over Campbelltown) not being picked up on "radar" (towards Kingsord Smith) indicating they were flying with transponders off? During the flight the Aircraft were heavily rocking one wing tip then the other (about 15 degrees) I reported the incident to CASA and BASI (as it was then called) An uncle of mine Evan Mackey flew spitfires (WWII) and he once said to me that the RAF disallowed full Victory Rolls but (sort of) allowed similar (Wing Waggling?) as a replacement gesture as it was (sort of) becoming compulsory (peer pressure) for returning flyer’s to do Victory Rolls. There was a good reason, at one time, for this RAF instruction.  Several pilots ending up killing themselves inexplicably with this maneouvre.  If I remember correctly it was established that an assembler had inadvertently inserted split pins in the reverse direction on the aileron hinges of a number of Spitfires.  Under heavy loading the aileron would jam.  I think the details are in in test pilot Jeffrey Quill’s book "Spitfire". John

Thanks for that Both Uncles Allan (stationed in Cairns & flew Catalina’s) and Evan at their funerals the New Zealand Air force gave flyovers to them both in remembrance (really good people and great pilots and war hero’s) Something I would like to see Australia copy Petzl — In the beauty of the lilies Christ was born across the sea, With a glory in his bosom that transfigures you and me: As he died to make men holy, let us die to make men free,           While God is marching on. Julia Ward Howe

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Missed that one. Are you seriously suggesting rolling a 767? Leaving aside the views of the airline, the insurers, the aviation authority, the manufacturer, and indeed anyone who’s remotely sane, is there a good reason this cannot be done successfully, without damaging the aircraft? Sylvia. Other than it is the one thing a Simulator won’t let you do (because it cannot)

Why can’t it? It’s not as if it has to simulate negative g. Sylvia.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Missed that one. Are you seriously suggesting rolling a 767? Leaving aside the views of the airline, the insurers, the aviation authority, the manufacturer, and indeed anyone who’s remotely sane, is there a good reason this cannot be done successfully, without damaging the aircraft? Sylvia. Other than it is the one thing a Simulator won’t let you do (because it cannot) , if you are careful (as Tex Johnson was when he did it with the Dash-80 and maintained a positive 1G load at all times), it obviously can be done.

Sure you can barrel roll the sims. They can’t emulate the real motions involved, but the instruments handle it perfectly well. They regularly end up in very extreme attitudes. For what it’s worth you can’t barrel roll anything, whilst maintaining 1G. If there is nose motion involved, then  the G loading will have to be greater than 1G. JB

Response:

Missed that one. Are you seriously suggesting rolling a 767? Leaving aside the views of the airline, the insurers, the aviation authority, the manufacturer, and indeed anyone who’s remotely sane, is there a good reason this cannot be done successfully, without damaging the aircraft? Sylvia.

Other than it is the one thing a Simulator won’t let you do (because it cannot) , if you are careful (as Tex Johnson was when he did it with the Dash-80 and maintained a positive 1G load at all times), it obviously can be done.

Response:

This dates back some years (2000) when I noted some low flying 767 ansett aircraft (about 1500 feet over Campbelltown) not being picked up on "radar" (towards Kingsord Smith) indicating they were flying with transponders off? As I’ve explained previously, it makes absolutely no sense to be flying transponder off.

It made no sense to me either at the time? So I reported my observations I did note he 9/11 planes had transponders off? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -During the flight the Aircraft were heavily rocking one wing tip then the other (about 15 degrees) I reported the incident to CASA and BASI (as it was then called) An uncle of mine Evan Mackey flew spitfires (WWII) and he once said to me that the RAF disallowed full Victory Rolls but (sort of) allowed similar (Wing Waggling?) as a replacement gesture as it was (sort of) becoming compulsory (peer pressure) for returning flyer’s to do Victory Rolls. So I described the 767’s as Victory Rolls (but not full rolls) Some have suggested it was Turbulance but I doubt this Well, I’ve got no particular problem with someone waggling the wings (for want of a better term), even if I don’t see the point of it. The cycle rate in a 767 would be somewhat less than what you could achieve in a Spitfire though. JB

and as I have been saying since 2000 it made no sense to me either? Petzl — LET’S LOOK OUT FOR AUSTRALIA http://www.nationalsecurity.gov.au/ Protecting our way of life from terrorist threat

Response:

This dates back some years (2000) when I noted some low flying 767 ansett aircraft (about 1500 feet over Campbelltown) not being picked up on "radar" (towards Kingsord Smith) indicating they were flying with transponders off?

As I’ve explained previously, it makes absolutely no sense to be flying transponder off. During the flight the Aircraft were heavily rocking one wing tip then the other (about 15 degrees) I reported the incident to CASA and BASI (as it was then called) An uncle of mine Evan Mackey flew spitfires (WWII) and he once said to me that the RAF disallowed full Victory Rolls but (sort of) allowed similar (Wing Waggling?) as a replacement gesture as it was (sort of) becoming compulsory (peer pressure) for returning flyer’s to do Victory Rolls. So I described the 767’s as Victory Rolls (but not full rolls) Some have suggested it was Turbulance but I doubt this

Well, I’ve got no particular problem with someone waggling the wings (for want of a better term), even if I don’t see the point of it. The cycle rate in a 767 would be somewhat less than what you could achieve in a Spitfire though. JB

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The footage of the passengers showed them carrying luggage This was a concern raised with Qantas Bangkok crash as it delays evacuation Petzl It was not a crash it was an incident It was a crash Fair enough. But how do you suggest stopping the passengers from taking their luggage? Other than not allowing them to bring it on in the first place. I don’t but the speed of an evacuation must be severely hampered if passengers stop to take out on board luggage. Maybe there is a way to lock the overhead compartments during evacuation? Now be a good kook and go watch those barrel rolling 767’s again I said victory rolls not barrel rolls Missed that one. Are you seriously suggesting rolling a 767? JB This dates back some years (2000) when I noted some low flying 767 ansett aircraft (about 1500 feet over Campbelltown) not being picked up on "radar" (towards Kingsord Smith) indicating they were flying with transponders off? During the flight the Aircraft were heavily rocking one wing tip then the other (about 15 degrees) I reported the incident to CASA and BASI (as it was then called) An uncle of mine Evan Mackey flew spitfires (WWII) and he once said to me that the RAF disallowed full Victory Rolls but (sort of) allowed similar (Wing Waggling?) as a replacement gesture as it was (sort of) becoming compulsory (peer pressure) for returning flyer’s to do Victory Rolls.

There was a good reason, at one time, for this RAF instruction.  Several pilots ending up killing themselves inexplicably with this maneouvre.  If I remember correctly it was established that an assembler had inadvertently inserted split pins in the reverse direction on the aileron hinges of a number of Spitfires.  Under heavy loading the aileron would jam.  I think the details are in in test pilot Jeffrey Quill’s book "Spitfire". John – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So I described the 767’s as Victory Rolls (but not full rolls) Some have suggested it was Turbulance but I doubt this <http://www.geocities.com/petzlx/turbulance.html Petzl — A: Because it disturbs the logical flow of a message. Q: Why is top posting a sloppy form of writing? http://www.allmyfaqs.com/faq.pl?How_to_post

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t but the speed of an evacuation must be severely hampered if passengers stop to take out on board luggage. Maybe there is a way to lock the overhead compartments during evacuation? I can’t see that working, even if it’s technically practical. All that would happen is that people would waste time trying to get the compartments open. In such incidents, there’s probably a fine line between complacency and panic, and any attempt to eliminate the former risks causing the latter, which could also be detrimental. Perhaps one needs to accept that people do not behave very rationally in such situations. After all, most people have no experience of being in an accident. The crew can shout "LEAVE YOUR HAND LUGGAGE BEHIND", but beyond that I can’t see there’s much to be done. Do evacuation timing tests allow for people collecting hand luggage? Sylvia.

Sometimes raising an observation can produce a easy fix (called brainstorming) It may also be that there is no obvious way to correct Petzl — LET’S LOOK OUT FOR AUSTRALIA http://www.nationalsecurity.gov.au/ Protecting our way of life from terrorist threat

Response:

alt.binaries.jfkjr.plane.pictures Hell they are lucky  on the spot pics looks like was rather wild weather more than other pics show

Response:

alt.binaries.jfkjr.plane.pictures Hell they are lucky  on the spot pics looks like was rather wild weather more than other pics show

That group must have limited circulation ? The footage I saw on TV showed all passengers taking their on board luggage out with them. This was a concern raised with Qantas Bangkok crash as it delays evacuation Petzl — LET’S LOOK OUT FOR AUSTRALIA http://www.nationalsecurity.gov.au/ Protecting our way of life from terrorist threat

Response:

alt.binaries.jfkjr.plane.pictures Hell they are lucky  on the spot pics looks like was rather wild weather more than other pics show That group must have limited circulation ?

No that is the area  between your ears Pretzel . The footage I saw on TV showed all passengers taking their on board luggage out with them.

*All* Passengers eh  Pretzel  hate to break it to you but the twilight zone does not constitute  news . This was a concern raised with Qantas Bangkok crash as it delays evacuation Petzl

It was not a crash it was an incident Now be a good kook and go watch those barrel rolling 767’s again Bye

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – alt.binaries.jfkjr.plane.pictures Hell they are lucky  on the spot pics looks like was rather wild weather more than other pics show That group must have limited circulation ? No that is the area  between your ears Pretzel . The footage I saw on TV showed all passengers taking their on board luggage out with them. *All* Passengers eh  Pretzel  hate to break it to you but the twilight zone does not constitute  news .

The footage of the passengers showed them carrying luggage This was a concern raised with Qantas Bangkok crash as it delays evacuation Petzl It was not a crash it was an incident

It was a crash Now be a good kook and go watch those barrel rolling 767’s again

I said victory rolls not barrel rolls Petzl — LET’S LOOK OUT FOR AUSTRALIA http://www.nationalsecurity.gov.au/ Protecting our way of life from terrorist threat

Response:

The footage of the passengers showed them carrying luggage This was a concern raised with Qantas Bangkok crash as it delays evacuation Petzl It was not a crash it was an incident It was a crash

Fair enough. But how do you suggest stopping the passengers from taking their luggage? Other than not allowing them to bring it on in the first place. Now be a good kook and go watch those barrel rolling 767’s again I said victory rolls not barrel rolls Petzl

Missed that one. Are you seriously suggesting rolling a 767? JB

Response:

Missed that one. Are you seriously suggesting rolling a 767?

Leaving aside the views of the airline, the insurers, the aviation authority, the manufacturer, and indeed anyone who’s remotely sane, is there a good reason this cannot be done successfully, without damaging the aircraft? Sylvia.

Response:

Missed that one. Are you seriously suggesting rolling a 767? Leaving aside the views of the airline, the insurers, the aviation authority, the manufacturer, and indeed anyone who’s remotely sane, is there a good reason this cannot be done successfully, without damaging the aircraft? Sylvia.

No, but Pretzel doesn’t know that. JB

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The footage of the passengers showed them carrying luggage This was a concern raised with Qantas Bangkok crash as it delays evacuation Petzl It was not a crash it was an incident It was a crash Fair enough. But how do you suggest stopping the passengers from taking their luggage? Other than not allowing them to bring it on in the first place.

I don’t but the speed of an evacuation must be severely hampered if passengers stop to take out on board luggage. Maybe there is a way to lock the overhead compartments during evacuation? Now be a good kook and go watch those barrel rolling 767’s again I said victory rolls not barrel rolls Missed that one. Are you seriously suggesting rolling a 767? JB

This dates back some years (2000) when I noted some low flying 767 ansett aircraft (about 1500 feet over Campbelltown) not being picked up on "radar" (towards Kingsord Smith) indicating they were flying with transponders off? During the flight the Aircraft were heavily rocking one wing tip then the other (about 15 degrees) I reported the incident to CASA and BASI (as it was then called) An uncle of mine Evan Mackey flew spitfires (WWII) and he once said to me that the RAF disallowed full Victory Rolls but (sort of) allowed similar (Wing Waggling?) as a replacement gesture as it was (sort of) becoming compulsory (peer pressure) for returning flyer’s to do Victory Rolls. So I described the 767’s as Victory Rolls (but not full rolls) Some have suggested it was Turbulance but I doubt this <http://www.geocities.com/petzlx/turbulance.html Petzl — A: Because it disturbs the logical flow of a message. Q: Why is top posting a sloppy form of writing? http://www.allmyfaqs.com/faq.pl?How_to_post

Response:

I don’t but the speed of an evacuation must be severely hampered if passengers stop to take out on board luggage. Maybe there is a way to lock the overhead compartments during evacuation?

I can’t see that working, even if it’s technically practical. All that would happen is that people would waste time trying to get the compartments open. In such incidents, there’s probably a fine line between complacency and panic, and any attempt to eliminate the former risks causing the latter, which could also be detrimental. Perhaps one needs to accept that people do not behave very rationally in such situations. After all, most people have no experience of being in an accident. The crew can shout "LEAVE YOUR HAND LUGGAGE BEHIND", but beyond that I can’t see there’s much to be done. Do evacuation timing tests allow for people collecting hand luggage? Sylvia.

Response:

Creative attempt at avoiding Part IVA

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am sorry Sir JP.  I am not going to have you talk ill of the dead: [...] Now I have a 2nd question to you : Is Tyrwhitt ’s plane going to be parked as well in the Kalgoorlie Hall of Fame, since Hank Longcock’s already is ? … the alleged Discoverer from the air of the Pilbara Iron Ore Province ? [...] It’s Long Hangingcock, not Hank Longcock. Dave Oh yeah, been raining over here for months interpersed with fine warm days. Should be a bumper harvest.  East coast will probably be OK too.  Thank your Celtic gods for me next time you’re in one of your auto erotic arse whipping frenzies.

Spain is currently undergoing it’s worst drought in many years (bushfires too). I wonder what THEY did to JPT !!!

Response:

So, this is where the Great Dr David Tyrwhitt is kept at the present time ! You know who he is of course, Travers ?

About 3 more posts & this thread will be consumed by my limited column width. Keep going – you’re nearly there

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I am sorry Sir JP.  I am not going to have you talk ill of the dead: [...] Now I have a 2nd question to you : Is Tyrwhitt ’s plane going to be parked as well in the Kalgoorlie Hall of Fame, since Hank Longcock’s already is ? … the alleged Discoverer from the air of the Pilbara Iron Ore Province ?

[...] It’s Long Hangingcock, not Hank Longcock. Dave Oh yeah, been raining over here for months interpersed with fine warm days. Should be a bumper harvest.  East coast will probably be OK too.  Thank your Celtic gods for me next time you’re in one of your auto erotic arse whipping frenzies.

Response:

So, this is where the Great Dr David Tyrwhitt is kept at the present time ! You know who he is of course, Travers ? Tyrwhitt is Gallop’s Official Discoverer of all the Great Sandy Desert shows … and from the air to boost ! Remember how conclusive the case is in "Desert Gold",  wondrous Australia best seller, Newmont / Newcrest / BHP ’s Pride, editor Louthean Press, where the Great Mining Pioneer Tyrwhitt says : QUOTE … I picked up the show from the air and landed near by in the Desert to take samples ! … UNQUOTE All flyers know how easy to make a crash landing in the Desert to take samples … my 1st question to you Vaurien is  then, how did fucken Tyrwhtt managed to fly off again with an obvious broken undercarriage ??? Have you read "Desert Gold"  ? If not you must ! Anglesea, Sunny, Foster already have, hence I strongly recommend you should too. Since further interested by History (that bit about Wellington’s bastard ’s claim was interesting ) you must too learn about the man who is the Honour of Western Australia ! arrh, I should say Australia at large   THE Great Tyrwhitt. Now I have a 2nd question to you : Is Tyrwhitt ’s plane going to be parked as well in the Kalgoorlie Hall of Fame, since Hank Longcock’s already is ? … the alleged Discoverer from the air of the Pilbara Iron Ore Province ? Would you mind asking your mate Gallop about it, please ? Well in that case,  that Hall of fame is going to look soon like an Aviation Museum too ! … and I have in this line already signified to APLA’s President Sheppard,  that it was out of question for me that my name should enter that place, since I am not indeed worthy of such company. With kindest regards to you Vaurien. — Sir Jean-Paul Turcaud Australia Mining Pioneer Exploration Geologist Discoverer and Legal Owner of Telfer, Nifty & Kintyre Mines The Great Sandy Desert of Australia Founder of the True Geology  ~~ Ignorance Is The Cosmic Sin, The One Never Forgiven ! ~~ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does Gallop wears a white coat ? Indeed he better be there to welcome me back ! ….as well as you Vaurien ! Well send our locums, couple of burly gents will take you to this nice place in Graylands where you’ll be given a beaut new set of pyjamas and put in a deluxe suite where even the walls are cushioned for your comfort.  Nothing but the best for a "mining pioneer". Travis www.travisvaurien.com

Response:

Aircraft lost over land

Question:

Thanks RT. thats amazing that a basically whole aircraft could sit out in the open like that and not be found for 3 years. .

Dunno if you’ve ever flown into Oz from the north to Syd, eg.   There is a bloody lot of nothing out there. Hours in a 747 with nothing but desert. Just desert (as distinct from ‘just deserts’:-) Heh!    On one trip in we did a circuit of Clermont (Q) at 30-something thousand feet as we were a little early and that was the first green spot for several hours Having done that a few times (all this as a pax of course) it fairly blew my mind when I went daylight to Moscow from Narita across Siberia. Hours in a 747 with nothing but forests and lakes!  Absolutely beautiful! Even more amazing that nobody bothered to recover it for 15 years.

Notta lotta roads in that area….. terry

And for God’s sake, revolt against Bill Gates and DON’T top post.

Response:

The story of the dakota recovered in Papua , prompted me to ask.  How many aircraft have been lost over land in Australia and never found? I am aware of the Cessna 210 lost in 1981 at Barrington Tops which was mentioned on this site some time ago.   Are there any others? Terry There was the F-18 A31-41 that went missing up the top end. It crashed during June 1991, but was not found till July 1994. yeah , that one is a little different cos i think it was virtually buried!

terry

Response:

The story of the dakota recovered in Papua , prompted me to ask.  How many aircraft have been lost over land in Australia and never found? I am aware of the Cessna 210 lost in 1981 at Barrington Tops which was mentioned on this site some time ago.   Are there any others? Terry

There was the F-18 A31-41 that went missing up the top end. It crashed during June 1991, but was not found till July 1994. — Darryl Gibbs Vintage and Warbirds.  http://www.vintageandwarbirds.com "Aircraft of Australia" hosted by the CNAPG at HTTP://www.cnapg.org Information on all aspects of aviation, particularly vintage and warbirds. Home of the CNAPG aircraft recognition quiz’s, and the Vintage and Warbird mailing list. For a family rated chat room based on aviation, visit "Just Plane Chat" at: http://groups.msn.com/JustPlaneChat

Response:

Thanks RT. thats amazing that a basically whole aircraft could sit out in the open like that and not be found for 3 years. . Even more amazing that nobody bothered to recover it for 15 years. terry

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – the air museum which contained a rebuilt small aircraft , which I cant recall the type, that was found after being lost in WA for several years in the 1960s.  Anyone know the details on this one? where it was found etc and what happened to the pilot? No warranties expressed or implied  as a) it was 40-odd years ago and b) I’m old enought to be suffering from OlTimers disease, aka CRAFT. However a) Maybe a Wackett, b) maybe a misapplied compass reading and c) certainly he perished. Assuming I’m anywhere near correct, his compass error (got the wrong sign on the variation IIRC) made certain he was looked for where he wasn’t. People less lazy than me can doubtless chase it down as it was in the crash comic. chap purchased the aircraft from my old deceased LAME. was flying it back to WA. he perished after flying past the transcontinental railway line and missing it enroute to forrest. I have commented on here previously that it can be impossible to see the railway when looking west if the light is in the right position. his experience was the direct cause of my buying the GPS. Well, 2 outa 3 after 40 years is not bad It WAS a Wackett and his body was never found.   From the museum’s site (as usual, you want something done you do it yourself) at:

http://www.warmuseums.com.au/Central%20Australian%20Aviation%20Museum… Alice%20Springs.htm – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – * has a photo of the a/c in the desert (looks like a good landing in terrain with bushes – the a/c is still on its wheels), plus a photo of the restored a/c now in the museum, plus the blurb: "Wackett CA-6 Trainer, forced landing in Great Victoria Desert of South Australia Jan 13th 1962. Was not found for 3 years, despite one of the greatest searches ever mounted in Australian aviation history. The remains of the pilot, James Knight, were never recovered. The aircraft was recovered by Bill Kinsman in 1977 and restored 1981-82." I’ve never seen a Wackett in the flesh, but it looks like a nice a/c – a bit Chipmunky perhaps… *  If that URL is too badly munged to use, Googling "wackett desert" will pop it up as the first hit.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – the air museum which contained a rebuilt small aircraft , which I cant recall the type, that was found after being lost in WA for several years in the 1960s.  Anyone know the details on this one? where it was found etc and what happened to the pilot? No warranties expressed or implied  as a) it was 40-odd years ago and b) I’m old enought to be suffering from OlTimers disease, aka CRAFT. However a) Maybe a Wackett, b) maybe a misapplied compass reading and c) certainly he perished. Assuming I’m anywhere near correct, his compass error (got the wrong sign on the variation IIRC) made certain he was looked for where he wasn’t. People less lazy than me can doubtless chase it down as it was in the crash comic.

 chap purchased the aircraft from my old deceased LAME. was flying it back to WA. he perished after flying past the transcontinental railway line and missing it enroute to forrest. I have commented on here previously that it can be impossible to see the railway when looking west if the light is in the right position. his experience was the direct cause of my buying the GPS. Stealth Pilot

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – the air museum which contained a rebuilt small aircraft , which I cant recall the type, that was found after being lost in WA for several years in the 1960s.  Anyone know the details on this one? where it was found etc and what happened to the pilot? No warranties expressed or implied  as a) it was 40-odd years ago and b) I’m old enought to be suffering from OlTimers disease, aka CRAFT. However a) Maybe a Wackett, b) maybe a misapplied compass reading and c) certainly he perished. Assuming I’m anywhere near correct, his compass error (got the wrong sign on the variation IIRC) made certain he was looked for where he wasn’t. People less lazy than me can doubtless chase it down as it was in the crash comic. chap purchased the aircraft from my old deceased LAME. was flying it back to WA. he perished after flying past the transcontinental railway line and missing it enroute to forrest. I have commented on here previously that it can be impossible to see the railway when looking west if the light is in the right position. his experience was the direct cause of my buying the GPS.

Well, 2 outa 3 after 40 years is not bad It WAS a Wackett and his body was never found.   From the museum’s site (as usual, you want something done you do it yourself) at: http://www.warmuseums.com.au/Central%20Australian%20Aviation%20Museum… * has a photo of the a/c in the desert (looks like a good landing in terrain with bushes – the a/c is still on its wheels), plus a photo of the restored a/c now in the museum, plus the blurb: "Wackett CA-6 Trainer, forced landing in Great Victoria Desert of South Australia Jan 13th 1962. Was not found for 3 years, despite one of the greatest searches ever mounted in Australian aviation history. The remains of the pilot, James Knight, were never recovered. The aircraft was recovered by Bill Kinsman in 1977 and restored 1981-82." I’ve never seen a Wackett in the flesh, but it looks like a nice a/c – a bit Chipmunky perhaps… *  If that URL is too badly munged to use, Googling "wackett desert" will pop it up as the first hit.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The story of the dakota recovered in Papua , prompted me to ask.  How many aircraft have been lost over land in Australia and never found? I am aware of the Cessna 210 lost in 1981 at Barrington Tops which was mentioned on this site some time ago.   Are there any others? And please dont mention the chieftan that has gone down near Mt Hotham, I am sure they will find this when the weather clears.  This one was a little close to home for  me,  being from an airfield near home that I pass very often.  I was even  thinking of taking the  Hotham flight with them this winter in the very same aircraft.  Its a sobering thought.. it kind of amases me that in this day and age that an aircraft could ever be lost for months let alone years with out being found by bushwalkers etc, but I know it happens.   I recall being in Alice springs recently when I visited the Kookaburra memorial and also the air museum which contained a rebuilt small aircraft , which I cant recall the type, that was found after being lost in WA for several years in the 1960s.  Anyone know the details on this one? where it was found etc and what happened to the pilot? Terry

My memory is failing me at an increasing rate, but IIRC, a Baron or Bonanza in early 80s Gladstone for Alice Springs via Longreach on a Sartime, failed to arrive Alice, and on checking, had not passed through Longreach.  AFAIK it has never been found, or if it was, I never heard. Brian

Response:

the air museum which contained a rebuilt small aircraft , which I cant recall the type, that was found after being lost in WA for several years in the 1960s.  Anyone know the details on this one? where it was found etc and what happened to the pilot?

No warranties expressed or implied  as a) it was 40-odd years ago and b) I’m old enought to be suffering from OlTimers disease, aka CRAFT. However  a) Maybe a Wackett, b) maybe a misapplied compass reading and c) certainly he perished. Assuming I’m anywhere near correct, his compass error (got the wrong sign on the variation IIRC) made certain he was looked for where he wasn’t. People less lazy than me can doubtless chase it down as it was in the crash comic.

Response:

Years ago (around 20 or so), when I started in Melbourne, there was an aircraft with 4 (iirc)  tourists thet went missing around (iirc) the Eildon Weir area. Think, because of the dense growth, it was years before the wreckage was stumbled apon. Bit fussy, old age, sigh

Yeah I remember that one but my recollection was it was a couple of months rather than years, but happy to be corrected terry

Response:

The story of the dakota recovered in Papua , prompted me to ask.  How many aircraft have been lost over land in Australia and never found? I am aware of the Cessna 210 lost in 1981 at Barrington Tops which was mentioned on this site some time ago.   Are there any others? And please dont mention the chieftan that has gone down near Mt Hotham, I am sure they will find this when the weather clears.  This one was a little close to home for  me,  being from an airfield near home that I pass very often.  I was even  thinking of taking the  Hotham flight with them this winter in the very same aircraft.  Its a sobering thought.. it kind of amases me that in this day and age that an aircraft could ever be lost for months let alone years with out being found by bushwalkers etc, but I know it happens.   I recall being in Alice springs recently when I visited the Kookaburra memorial and also the air museum which contained a rebuilt small aircraft , which I cant recall the type, that was found after being lost in WA for several years in the 1960s.  Anyone know the details on this one? where it was found etc and what happened to the pilot? Terry

Response:

Years ago (around 20 or so), when I started in Melbourne, there was an aircraft with 4 (iirc)  tourists thet went missing around (iirc) the Eildon Weir area. Think, because of the dense growth, it was years before the wreckage was stumbled apon. Bit fussy, old age, sigh – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The story of the dakota recovered in Papua , prompted me to ask.  How many aircraft have been lost over land in Australia and never found? I am aware of the Cessna 210 lost in 1981 at Barrington Tops which was mentioned on this site some time ago.   Are there any others? And please dont mention the chieftan that has gone down near Mt Hotham, I am sure they will find this when the weather clears.  This one was a little close to home for  me,  being from an airfield near home that I pass very often.  I was even  thinking of taking the  Hotham flight with them this winter in the very same aircraft.  Its a sobering thought.. it kind of amases me that in this day and age that an aircraft could ever be lost for months let alone years with out being found by bushwalkers etc, but I know it happens.   I recall being in Alice springs recently when I visited the Kookaburra memorial and also the air museum which contained a rebuilt small aircraft , which I cant recall the type, that was found after being lost in WA for several years in the 1960s.  Anyone know the details on this one? where it was found etc and what happened to the pilot? Terry

Regards, Moby Alan Stuart     downunder in Perth, Oz Homepage:       http://www.moby58.com Local Weather:  http://mobywx.ozflightsim.com/wx Stuff for sale: http://www.moby58.com/forsale * Remove NOSPAM.AND.EGGS. from email address for replies. And just to try and stop spammers: Making life REAL hard for spammers with: http://members.iinet.net.au/~shades2/spamtrap.html

Response:

searching for

Question:

thanks heaps darryl found a few pic’s of it

Response:

hi guys am trying to trace the history on a embraer Brasilia 120 that pel-air has just aquired it’s Aussie rego has only just become active it is VH-EEB  am trying to find out what it history is and any photo’s of it b4 it was converted to a freighter its construction number is 120117 any help with sites or links welcome

Response:

Hi Gazza. Here’s a little bit that I have on that aircraft.  I’m not too sure if the previous owners are all listed in the correct order. 19? The aircraft was registered as PT-SNJ. 1988 The aircraft was re-registered as N1117H. ? The aircraft was acquired by Comair. ? The aircraft was acquired by Corporate Trust Services, 1 Federal Street, Boston, USA. ? The aircraft was acquired by Skywest Airlines. 29Apr2005 The aircraft was re-registered as VH-EEB by Pel-Air Aviation Ltd. — Darryl Gibbs "Aircraft of Australia" hosted by HTTP://www.cnapg.org Information on all aspects of aviation, particularly vintage and warbirds. Home of the CNAPG aircraft recognition quiz’s, and the Vintage and Warbird mailing list. For a family rated chat room based on aviation, visit "Just Plane Chat" at: http://groups.msn.com/JustPlaneChat

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hi guys am trying to trace the history on a embraer Brasilia 120 that pel-air has just aquired it’s Aussie rego has only just become active it is VH-EEB  am trying to find out what it history is and any photo’s of it b4 it was converted to a freighter its construction number is 120117 any help with sites or links welcome

Response:

A380 flies – 800 pax, really a big deal?

Question:

    MS If they’re true, then (packed in like sardines), the A380     MS could carry 2000+ passengers. I heard somewhere the limiting factor is the emergency evacuation, and if you fit more then 500 passengers in the A380 it isn’t possible to evacuate it fast enough. Also, do you want a repeat of the Tenerife accident with full A380s? Or the more recent midair collision in (IIRC) Germany? No thanks….

Have a look in a recent thread in rec.aviation.piloting, or it might be rec.aviation.student describes the trials that Airbus are going through to determing the evacuability of the A380. This can be a hazardous process. In a trial (MD11) in the early 90’s one person broke their neck at the bottom of the slide! They certainly would like to cram in more than 550 passengers into the 380 if the can get certification.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Haven’t seen any footage yet, but she flies (aparently). Which got me thinking about the number of passengers these big jets carry compared to a 747. I used to think the record was 500+ on a 747 out of Darwin after Tracey. Yesterday someone told me that it was actually 750 pax. They went on a said that El Al has run charters with as many as 1000 pax on a 747. Can anyone confirm these figures? If they’re true, then (packed in like sardines), the A380 could carry 2000+ passengers. Comments?

Bear in mind that those figures were achieved in emergency situations and certain safety requirements were side-stepped (In the case of QF 747 seat belts, oxy masks… emergency exits etc.) The thing that will (legally) limit the A380 more than floorspace is the number of exits and how far you wanna fly it (to allow for fuel)… I guess at 510 (QF config) it isn’t a hell of a lot more than a 747-400 and Singapore Airlines will have theirs configured for even fewer… But if I guess there was an emergency uplift more than 1000 could be packed into an A380… Wouldn’t wanna be in that boat though (pardon the pun)… Regards, BB. p.s. During the Tracy evacuation QF set the record for the number of people flown in a 707 flight as well… Don’t know if that one still stands either…

Response:

   MS If they’re true, then (packed in like sardines), the A380    MS could carry 2000+ passengers. I heard somewhere the limiting factor is the emergency evacuation, and if you fit more then 500 passengers in the A380 it isn’t possible to evacuate it fast enough. Also, do you want a repeat of the Tenerife accident with full A380s? Or the more recent midair collision in (IIRC) Germany? No thanks….

A consideration for sure. Maybe this limitation will cancel the technological limitations.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Haven’t seen any footage yet, but she flies (aparently). Which got me thinking about the number of passengers these big jets carry compared to a 747. I used to think the record was 500+ on a 747 out of Darwin after Tracey. Yesterday someone told me that it was actually 750 pax. They went on a said that El Al has run charters with as many as 1000 pax on a 747. I’d use the word charter cautiously.  It certainly wasn’t any ordinary charter. It was a matter of get the Jew out of Ethiopa, or watch them be murdered, so the normal safety requirements for passenger operations were waived. It was safer to waive them, then to leave anyone behind. "In May of 1991, EL AL assisted in airlifting more than 14,000 Ethiopian Jews as part of "Operation Solomon," one of the most dramatic rescue missions in the history of Israel’s national airline.

VFR Lastlight Requirements

Question:

No bloody wonder I’ve gone grey Oh, is that what causes it…. nothing to do with getting old, then….

Too busy being young and spritely (and telling lies) to get old

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyway, in the absence of the reference, here’s the full text: A Lesson on Light This article describes some lessons I learned on a trip from Parafield …snip….. Never been so pleased to see runway lights appear in front of us – while we were at less than 200 ft in torrential rain!  :-) No bloody wonder I’ve gone grey

Oh, is that what causes it…. nothing to do with getting old, then…. Coop

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – See my article in an old issue of Aviation Safety Digest for a discussion of how you can get yourself into this pickle, and how you can luck yourself out of it….. Bugger, do you mean I have to root around among the dust and dead moths again? Surely someone here has them all catallogg…cattal…sorted? Coop Yep

Ah…found it at last. It was printed in Asia-Pacific Air Safety, June, 1995. Coop

Response:

Anyway, in the absence of the reference, here’s the full text: A Lesson on Light This article describes some lessons I learned on a trip from Parafield

Thinking about it, it seems that only in a/c can you have a long crisis. Hmmm – or maybe in boats as well? In other forms of transportation if things go bad the results are immediate. Thanks for the post – I can relate to that I have been in a worse spot, but there were 2 pilots and I wasn’t PIC so could do the nav while he kept the greasy side down In our case we were at the end of a day-long circuit of aerial seeding in a PA32-260 with only stat reserves when we hit storms close to home on last light.   Vis went way down as you said and we ended up following the shiny river at zot – at least you could see that.   Very ordinary – ended up landing on our (by then) closed-to-IFR aerodrome in a thunderstorm. I don’t think a single pilot (either me or him) could have managed it – the workload was too high.   Hmm – I’m sure I couldn’t have done it by myself, anyway – maybe he could have… Fortunately the tower knew perfectly well the pickle  we were in and we and they were very careful about the radio transmissions so there was no paperwork.   Would have been a waste of time anyway – nobody did anything wrong – it just happened. Never been so pleased to see runway lights appear in front of us – while we were at less than 200 ft in torrential rain!  :-) No bloody wonder I’ve gone grey

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – See my article in an old issue of Aviation Safety Digest for a discussion of how you can get yourself into this pickle, and how you can luck yourself out of it….. And the reference is:- Bugger, do you mean I have to root around among the dust and dead moths again? Surely someone here has them all catallogg…cattal…sorted? Coop Yep Sorry- blew the dust away, evicted the bugs, but no luck. Issue No 147 is missing and that’s about the right time, or else its after issue number 150- I don’t seem to have any after that (maybe it finished then?). Coop Yep. Googled the history and found that 150 was the last one. So it must be in 147. Someone out there will have it…. Coop The Navigator has just reminded me that the original was produced on the computer and so is probably in the archives- and she was right (bless her….) The creation date for the file was June 1993, so it looks like it must have been published in something other than ASD, probably whatever came after that (Air Safety?). Anyway, in the absence of the reference, here’s the full text: A Lesson on Light This article describes some lessons I learned on a trip from Parafield to Port Pirie and return in less than ideal conditions. Maybe others can learn from it too. I’d prepared carefully for the flight, because I knew I wouldn’t have much time to spare at my destination (Port Pirie), where the pressure would be on to get done all the things I’d planned for the day. Having not done much mid-winter flying before, I’d also carefully worked out the time of last light from the daylight and darkness graphs. My calculations showed a last light time of 0824 UTC, or 1754 local time. So, given a flight time of around 1 hour from Pt Pirie to Parafield, that meant the absolute latest departure time would be about 1640 to see me home by ten minutes before last light. I intended to leave myself a good half hour before last light anyway, so I aimed to be airborne by 0645 UTC, or 1615 local time. I obtained the weather from briefing, which gave two sets of figures, north and south of a line Pt Lincoln-Loxton. Figuring I’d be in the northern part of this most of the way, I used these figures to work out the time intervals to Dublin and Outer Harbour. On arrival at the airfield, it was obvious from the wind on the ground that I should have used the other figures, so I quickly re-calculated the time intervals, got airborne, and set heading at 1500′ at 0650 UTC, five minutes later than I’d planned. There was a heavy shower south of Pirie, so I deviated west of track to get around it, and then found another one in the way. Things were now clearer to the east, but this would mean crossing the hummocks at a point where they were higher than I’d intended, so I called the Adelaide FIS and advised them that I would be cruising at 2000′ from around Bute to Bowmans and queried any IFR traffic. There was none, so I climbed to 2000, crossed the hummocks, and turned south again for Dublin, dropping down to 1500′ again as I did so. The air was clear now as far south as I could see, although there was still a heavy overcast, making it dim enough in the cockpit for the illumination on the radio dials to be obvious. I knew the diversions had cost me some time, but I was confident of still having sufficient margin. Shortly after passing Port Wakefield, I noticed that one or two of the cars on the main highway had their lights on. Although the sky to my west was still quite bright, and I could still see the ground, I was beginning to have doubts as to how much longer the light would last. A rough calculation produced a bit of a surprise. I estimated I would pass Dublin about 0755, and with a further 15 minutes to Outer Harbour, plus about 5 minutes to get in to Parafield, I would be landing at 0815, just on ten minutes before last light- that was cutting it a bit fine.  I advanced the throttle for a few extra knots and thought some more. It looked like the diversions had eaten up all of my margin. That, and the thick cloud, could explain the reducing light. I should make it O.K., although the cloud cover was obviously going to mean that things would be pretty dim by the time I got to Parafield. Still, it looked to me like it was duller than it should be. Better check… "Adelaide, this is Bravo Whiskey Echo, can you confirm time of last light for Adelaide please" "Bravo Whiskey Echo, stand by… Bravo Whiskey Echo, last light at Adelaide is 0809" That was a shock. Last light before my estimate for touch down. I wasted about 20 seconds wondering how that could have happened and then realised I’d be better off just accepting the facts and looking at my options. I was in the poo, all right. I knew there was a strip used by the parachute jumpers at Lower Light, which wasn’t far off, but I wasn’t familiar with it, wasn’t absolutely sure of its location, and in the by now steadily fading light I wouldn’t be able to check out its condition, power lines, obstacles, etc. Then there was Edinburgh- big runway, good lighting, and further off, but I might be able to make it with enough light to land if I went direct. I called Adelaide, said I couldn’t make Parafield by last light and told them what I thought my options were. They suggested Balaklava, but I discarded this as no better than Lower Light, and probably harder to find. I noted Dublin underneath at 0753. Two minutes earlier than I’d guessed. That put me at Outer Harbour at 0808. Too late, better go for Edinburgh. Adelaide asked if I thought I could reach Edinburgh. They were thinking the same way I was. Good. I asked them to stand by while I did some rough estimates. By now I had to turn the instrument lights up to see clearly what I was doing in the cockpit. Edinburgh was about 20 miles, and I knew I was making at least 100 knots, which should put me there in about 12 minutes, or at about 0805. Navigation should be easy, just follow the highway. I called Adelaide, said I could make Edinburgh and requested a clearance. I was already heading that way when the clearance came through. By now the ground was starting to fade, all the cars had their lights on, and I was starting to wonder if a white cane might not come in handy. The real meaning of last light was becoming apparent. Obviously the cloud cover was making it worse, but I knew that within a few minutes I would effectively be flying night VFR (un-rated), whether or not last light had actually arrived. I was very thankful it wasn’t raining. Shortly afterwards I had a conversation with the Edinburgh tower controller, who cleared me to land. She then advised that Adelaide radar had calculated that with my present ground speed I could make Parafield before last light. By this stage I’d managed to confuse Edinburgh with Parafield in the background of twinkling lights, and figured another minute or three would hardly make any difference, since it was near enough night anyway. I saw the Edinburgh lights wink out as I passed overhead, said thanks to the young lady who had left whatever she had been doing to operate the tower for me, and proceeded on to an uneventful landing at Parafield, where I noted on short final that the white line down the middle of the runway was just visible between the rows of runway lights. Only just. What I did wrong 1.  I Calculated the wrong time of last light- my pencil marks on the graphs showed that when extracting the data, I’d aligned my ruler on May 7th, not June 7th. The error wasn’t large enough to catch my attention- 1754 local time seemed about right. (It was no real consolation to discover that my calculation for May 7th (0824 UTC) was correct.) In the past, I’d always checked these calculations against the figure in the Parafield briefing office. This is one local feature that I miss since the office closed. 2. Knowing that there were isolated showers forecast, I’d failed to consider that diversions could add significantly to the flight time. On the positive side 1. I recognised that things didn’t look right, and checked my suspicions instead of rationalising them away (which I was tempted to do- the overcast was a convenient and plausible excuse.) 2. When I knew I was in a spot, I accepted it while I still had some options left and got on with considering the choices. I think the decision not to land  in fading light on an unfamiliar, unlit strip, even though it was very close, was reasonable. I saw it from the air when directly overhead, but by then the light was almost gone. 3. I let the people on the ground know, so that they could offer help. They alerted Edinburgh, and having covered that option, they worked out a ground speed, and were able to offer me the choice of continuing to Parafield. This smoothed the way for me, and having them back up my reasoning as I thought my way through my predicament was a great support. Final comment This situation was more embarrassing than critical, but the position could have rapidly deteriorated if I had encountered a shower of rain or some low cloud during the last few minutes of the flight when I wouldn’t have seen it coming. To me the lessons are clear. Leave bigger margins for error in poor weather, and ask for help as soon as you think you need it.

Well done … read more »

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – See my article in an old issue of Aviation Safety Digest for a discussion of how you can get yourself into this pickle, and how you can luck yourself out of it….. Bugger, do you mean I have to root around among the dust and dead moths again? Surely someone here has them all catallogg…cattal…sorted? Coop Yep Sorry- blew the dust away, evicted the bugs, but no luck. Issue No 147 is missing and that’s about the right time, or else its after issue number 150- I don’t seem to have any after that (maybe it finished then?). Coop

Yep. Googled the history and found that 150 was the last one. So it must be in 147. Someone out there will have it…. Coop

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – See my article in an old issue of Aviation Safety Digest for a discussion of how you can get yourself into this pickle, and how you can luck yourself out of it….. Bugger, do you mean I have to root around among the dust and dead moths again? Surely someone here has them all catallogg…cattal…sorted? Coop Yep Sorry- blew the dust away, evicted the bugs, but no luck. Issue No 147 is missing and that’s about the right time, or else its after issue number 150- I don’t seem to have any after that (maybe it finished then?). Coop Yep. Googled the history and found that 150 was the last one. So it must be in 147. Someone out there will have it…. Coop

The Navigator has just reminded me that the original was produced on the computer and so is probably in the archives- and she was right (bless her….) The creation date for the file was June 1993, so it looks like it must have been published in something other than ASD, probably whatever came after that (Air Safety?). Anyway, in the absence of the reference, here’s the full text: A Lesson on Light This article describes some lessons I learned on a trip from Parafield to Port Pirie and return in less than ideal conditions. Maybe others can learn from it too. I’d prepared carefully for the flight, because I knew I wouldn’t have much time to spare at my destination (Port Pirie), where the pressure would be on to get done all the things I’d planned for the day. Having not done much mid-winter flying before, I’d also carefully worked out the time of last light from the daylight and darkness graphs. My calculations showed a last light time of 0824 UTC, or 1754 local time. So, given a flight time of around 1 hour from Pt Pirie to Parafield, that meant the absolute latest departure time would be about 1640 to see me home by ten minutes before last light. I intended to leave myself a good half hour before last light anyway, so I aimed to be airborne by 0645 UTC, or 1615 local time. I obtained the weather from briefing, which gave two sets of figures, north and south of a line Pt Lincoln-Loxton. Figuring I’d be in the northern part of this most of the way, I used these figures to work out the time intervals to Dublin and Outer Harbour. On arrival at the airfield, it was obvious from the wind on the ground that I should have used the other figures, so I quickly re-calculated the time intervals, got airborne, and set heading at 1500′ at 0650 UTC, five minutes later than I’d planned. There was a heavy shower south of Pirie, so I deviated west of track to get around it, and then found another one in the way. Things were now clearer to the east, but this would mean crossing the hummocks at a point where they were higher than I’d intended, so I called the Adelaide FIS and advised them that I would be cruising at 2000′ from around Bute to Bowmans and queried any IFR traffic. There was none, so I climbed to 2000, crossed the hummocks, and turned south again for Dublin, dropping down to 1500′ again as I did so. The air was clear now as far south as I could see, although there was still a heavy overcast, making it dim enough in the cockpit for the illumination on the radio dials to be obvious. I knew the diversions had cost me some time, but I was confident of still having sufficient margin. Shortly after passing Port Wakefield, I noticed that one or two of the cars on the main highway had their lights on. Although the sky to my west was still quite bright, and I could still see the ground, I was beginning to have doubts as to how much longer the light would last. A rough calculation produced a bit of a surprise. I estimated I would pass Dublin about 0755, and with a further 15 minutes to Outer Harbour, plus about 5 minutes to get in to Parafield, I would be landing at 0815, just on ten minutes before last light- that was cutting it a bit fine.  I advanced the throttle for a few extra knots and thought some more. It looked like the diversions had eaten up all of my margin. That, and the thick cloud, could explain the reducing light. I should make it O.K., although the cloud cover was obviously going to mean that things would be pretty dim by the time I got to Parafield. Still, it looked to me like it was duller than it should be. Better check… "Adelaide, this is Bravo Whiskey Echo, can you confirm time of last light for Adelaide please" "Bravo Whiskey Echo, stand by… Bravo Whiskey Echo, last light at Adelaide is 0809" That was a shock. Last light before my estimate for touch down. I wasted about 20 seconds wondering how that could have happened and then realised I’d be better off just accepting the facts and looking at my options. I was in the poo, all right. I knew there was a strip used by the parachute jumpers at Lower Light, which wasn’t far off, but I wasn’t familiar with it, wasn’t absolutely sure of its location, and in the by now steadily fading light I wouldn’t be able to check out its condition, power lines, obstacles, etc. Then there was Edinburgh- big runway, good lighting, and further off, but I might be able to make it with enough light to land if I went direct. I called Adelaide, said I couldn’t make Parafield by last light and told them what I thought my options were. They suggested Balaklava, but I discarded this as no better than Lower Light, and probably harder to find. I noted Dublin underneath at 0753. Two minutes earlier than I’d guessed. That put me at Outer Harbour at 0808. Too late, better go for Edinburgh. Adelaide asked if I thought I could reach Edinburgh. They were thinking the same way I was. Good. I asked them to stand by while I did some rough estimates. By now I had to turn the instrument lights up to see clearly what I was doing in the cockpit. Edinburgh was about 20 miles, and I knew I was making at least 100 knots, which should put me there in about 12 minutes, or at about 0805. Navigation should be easy, just follow the highway. I called Adelaide, said I could make Edinburgh and requested a clearance. I was already heading that way when the clearance came through. By now the ground was starting to fade, all the cars had their lights on, and I was starting to wonder if a white cane might not come in handy. The real meaning of last light was becoming apparent. Obviously the cloud cover was making it worse, but I knew that within a few minutes I would effectively be flying night VFR (un-rated), whether or not last light had actually arrived. I was very thankful it wasn’t raining. Shortly afterwards I had a conversation with the Edinburgh tower controller, who cleared me to land. She then advised that Adelaide radar had calculated that with my present ground speed I could make Parafield before last light. By this stage I’d managed to confuse Edinburgh with Parafield in the background of twinkling lights, and figured another minute or three would hardly make any difference, since it was near enough night anyway. I saw the Edinburgh lights wink out as I passed overhead, said thanks to the young lady who had left whatever she had been doing to operate the tower for me, and proceeded on to an uneventful landing at Parafield, where I noted on short final that the white line down the middle of the runway was just visible between the rows of runway lights. Only just. What I did wrong 1.  I Calculated the wrong time of last light- my pencil marks on the graphs showed that when extracting the data, I’d aligned my ruler on May 7th, not June 7th. The error wasn’t large enough to catch my attention- 1754 local time seemed about right. (It was no real consolation to discover that my calculation for May 7th (0824 UTC) was correct.) In the past, I’d always checked these calculations against the figure in the Parafield briefing office. This is one local feature that I miss since the office closed. 2. Knowing that there were isolated showers forecast, I’d failed to consider that diversions could add significantly to the flight time. On the positive side 1. I recognised that things didn’t look right, and checked my suspicions instead of rationalising them away (which I was tempted to do- the overcast was a convenient and plausible excuse.) 2. When I knew I was in a spot, I accepted it while I still had some options left and got on with considering the choices. I think the decision not to land  in fading light on an unfamiliar, unlit strip, even though it was very close, was reasonable. I saw it from the air when directly overhead, but by then the light was almost gone. 3. I let the people on the ground know, so that they could offer help. They alerted Edinburgh, and having covered that option, they worked out a ground speed, and were able to offer me the choice of continuing to Parafield. This smoothed the way for me, and having them back up my reasoning as I thought my way through my predicament was a great support. Final comment This situation was more embarrassing than critical, but the position could have rapidly deteriorated if I had encountered a shower of rain or some low cloud during the last few minutes of the flight when I wouldn’t have seen it coming. To me the lessons are clear. Leave bigger margins for error in poor weather, and ask for help as soon as you think you need it.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – See my article in an old issue of Aviation Safety Digest for a discussion of how you can get yourself into this pickle, and how you can luck yourself out of it….. Bugger, do you mean I have to root around among the dust and dead moths again? Surely someone here has them all catallogg…cattal…sorted? Coop

Yep

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – See my article in an old issue of Aviation Safety Digest for a discussion of how you can get yourself into this pickle, and how you can luck yourself out of it….. Bugger, do you mean I have to root around among the dust and dead moths again? Surely someone here has them all catallogg…cattal…sorted? Coop Yep

Sorry- blew the dust away, evicted the bugs, but no luck. Issue No 147 is missing and that’s about the right time, or else its after issue number 150- I don’t seem to have any after that (maybe it finished then?). Coop

Response:

See my article in an old issue of Aviation Safety Digest for a discussion of how you can get yourself into this pickle, and how you can luck yourself out of it…..

Response:

MIL80C said…. BTW, "fly" here is defined as defying the law of gravity.

I thought that it was throwing yourself at the ground and missing…..

Response:

See my article in an old issue of Aviation Safety Digest for a discussion of how you can get yourself into this pickle, and how you can luck yourself out of it…..

Bugger, do you mean I have to root around among the dust and dead moths again? Surely someone here has them all catallogg…cattal…sorted? Coop

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi guys, Looking through AIP and CAO’s, cant find information regarding the requirements for VFR and EoD. I am aware that you must be at a destination 10mins before last light however, I recall that you must be in the circuit pattern before EoD… Is this correct, or is the ruling you must be on the ground. ENR 1.2-1, paragraph 1.1.2 does not actually stipulate this! Any advice, Jad depending on where you are and what weather is lurking on the western horizon you can be in deep shit long before official last light. if there is a sea mist/fog forming you can be in deeper shit still. the requirement is that you dont kill yourself. the law words this with some odd terminology at times. like "vfr flights must end 10 minutes before last light." what they mean is that last light can be like switching off the light in a dark room so be on the ground before the light goes out. remember, when the top of the suns disk dips below the horizon you have no more than 20 minutes to unflyable darkness. dont wait for 19 minutes to panic, plan your way out of the guano there and then. oh a definition of darkness. when the instruments on the panel in front of you are not visible. deep shit is a technical term, believe it or not, for the situation where not only the instruments but the entire panel is not visible and you discover that the cockpit light has blown sometime in the previous half hour. Stealth (do as I say not as I do! ) Pilot See my article in an old issue of Aviation Safety Digest for a discussion of how you can get yourself into this pickle, and how you can luck yourself out of it….. Stealth is right- there are some days where a landing after official last light is still a feasible proposition, and there are some days where its as black as the inside of a dog’s guts before official last light. Learn about what makes the difference and plan accordingly. I usually plan to be on the ground half an hour before last light. I had to work at convincing the Navigator that being late is not a good idea when it comes to landings- until she saw the shadows lengthening as we approached Kyabram one late afternoon. (No trouble since then.) We hadn’t been there before, so we had a backup plan of another airfield a few miles back which had PAL. It’s worth learning how to use PAL even if you are not night rated- it could save your life one day. Coop

And another thing- even if you can’t afford a NVFR rating, a few night circuits with an instructor are an excellent experience to have tucked away in your memory banks for the day you stuff up badly and find the sun setting before you’ve arrived…. Coop

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi guys, Looking through AIP and CAO’s, cant find information regarding the requirements for VFR and EoD. I am aware that you must be at a destination 10mins before last light however, I recall that you must be in the circuit pattern before EoD… Is this correct, or is the ruling you must be on the ground. ENR 1.2-1, paragraph 1.1.2 does not actually stipulate this! Any advice, Jad depending on where you are and what weather is lurking on the western horizon you can be in deep shit long before official last light. if there is a sea mist/fog forming you can be in deeper shit still. the requirement is that you dont kill yourself. the law words this with some odd terminology at times. like "vfr flights must end 10 minutes before last light." what they mean is that last light can be like switching off the light in a dark room so be on the ground before the light goes out. remember, when the top of the suns disk dips below the horizon you have no more than 20 minutes to unflyable darkness. dont wait for 19 minutes to panic, plan your way out of the guano there and then. oh a definition of darkness. when the instruments on the panel in front of you are not visible. deep shit is a technical term, believe it or not, for the situation where not only the instruments but the entire panel is not visible and you discover that the cockpit light has blown sometime in the previous half hour. Stealth (do as I say not as I do! ) Pilot

See my article in an old issue of Aviation Safety Digest for a discussion of how you can get yourself into this pickle, and how you can luck yourself out of it….. Stealth is right- there are some days where a landing after official last light is still a feasible proposition, and there are some days where its as black as the inside of a dog’s guts before official last light. Learn about what makes the difference and plan accordingly. I usually plan to be on the ground half an hour before last light. I had to work at convincing the Navigator that being late is not a good idea when it comes to landings- until she saw the shadows lengthening as we approached Kyabram one late afternoon. (No trouble since then.) We hadn’t been there before, so we had a backup plan of another airfield a few miles back which had PAL. It’s worth learning how to use PAL even if you are not night rated- it could save your life one day. Coop

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – depending on where you are and what weather is lurking on the western horizon you can be in deep shit long before official last light. if there is a sea mist/fog forming you can be in deeper shit still. the requirement is that you dont kill yourself. the law words this with some odd terminology at times. like "vfr flights must end 10 minutes before last light." what they mean is that last light can be like switching off the light in a dark room so be on the ground before the light goes out. remember, when the top of the suns disk dips below the horizon you have no more than 20 minutes to unflyable darkness. dont wait for 19 minutes to panic, plan your way out of the guano there and then. oh a definition of darkness. when the instruments on the panel in front of you are not visible. deep shit is a technical term, believe it or not, for the situation where not only the instruments but the entire panel is not visible and you discover that the cockpit light has blown sometime in the previous half hour.

And the torch with its’ corroded batteries is safely stowed in the rear storage area.

Response:

Hi guys, Looking through AIP and CAO’s, cant find information regarding the requirements for VFR and EoD. I am aware that you must be at a destination 10mins before last light however, I recall that you must be in the circuit pattern before EoD… Is this correct, or is the ruling you must be on the ground. ENR 1.2-1, paragraph 1.1.2 does not actually stipulate this! Any advice, Jad

depending on where you are and what weather is lurking on the western horizon you can be in deep shit long before official last light. if there is a sea mist/fog forming you can be in deeper shit still. the requirement is that you dont kill yourself. the law words this with some odd terminology at times. like "vfr flights must end 10 minutes before last light." what they mean is that last light can be like switching off the light in a dark room so be on the ground before the light goes out. remember, when the top of the suns disk dips below the horizon you have no more than 20 minutes to unflyable darkness. dont wait for 19 minutes to panic, plan your way out of the guano there and then. oh a definition of darkness. when the instruments on the panel in front of you are not visible. deep shit is a technical term, believe it or not, for the situation where not only the instruments but the entire panel is not visible and you discover that the cockpit light has blown sometime in the previous half hour. Stealth (do as I say not as I do! ) Pilot

Response:

Hi guys, Looking through AIP and CAO’s, cant find information regarding the requirements for VFR and EoD. I am aware that you must be at a destination 10mins before last light however, I recall that you must be in the circuit pattern before EoD… Is this correct, or is the ruling you must be on the ground. ENR 1.2-1, paragraph 1.1.2 does not actually stipulate this! Any advice, Jad

Response:

Hi guys, Looking through AIP and CAO’s, cant find information regarding the requirements for VFR and EoD. I am aware that you must be at a destination 10mins before last light however, I recall that you must be in the circuit pattern before EoD… Is this correct, or is the ruling you must be on the ground. ENR 1.2-1, paragraph 1.1.2 does not actually stipulate this!

I’m not a pilot, I’m an Air Trafficker, but I would suggest that the rules are quite simple, do not fly after the end of Last Light or before First Light.  So that would mean dollop your dunlops on the runway one minute after Last Light and the CASA bloke that everyone knows hides behind the Terminal for just this occasion will leap out and cast a nasty spell on you. BTW, "fly" here is defined as defying the law of gravity.  I would suggest you could taxy all round the manoeuvering area to your hearts content all night long. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Any advice, Jad

Response:

Air crash – June 1958

Question:

I’m seeking any information about an air crash the occured on 6 June 1958 in Victoria. At least one person died in the crash. If anyone could point me to any information, I would appreciate it. Thanks… Paul Blair Canberra

Response:

The first place to start would be newspapers of the time. Check out the National Library of Australia and see if they have the newspapers online or on microfilm – they should have them. Cheers Paul I’m seeking any information about an air crash the occured on 6 June 1958 in Victoria. At least one person died in the crash. If anyone could point me to any information, I would appreciate it. Thanks… Paul Blair Canberra

 Unless otherwise stated all references to location refer to Western Australia

Response:

The first place to start would be newspapers of the time. Check out the National Library of Australia and see if they have the newspapers online or on microfilm – they should have them. Cheers

I will certainly do that. But I was really after some facts, not journo scribble. Paul – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Paul I’m seeking any information about an air crash the occured on 6 June 1958 in Victoria. At least one person died in the crash. If anyone could point me to any information, I would appreciate it. Thanks… Paul Blair Canberra  Unless otherwise stated all references to location refer to Western Australia

Response:

I’m seeking any information about an air crash the occured on 6 June 1958 in Victoria. At least one person died in the crash. If anyone could point me to any information, I would appreciate it.

The only Australian accident reported by Lloyds of London on that date was a Piper PA-22 VH-RVP which crashed at, or near, Melbourne. The Melbourne daily (The Age ?) would be the place I would start. HTH Vic Smith — Civil Aviation History Web Site now at     http://users.argonet.co.uk/users/vicsmith/

Response:

OT: USenet server confusion

Question:

: Outlook Express is not a newsreader, Outlook Express is not a newsreader, : Outlook Express is "

increasing wing strength

Question:

I am trying to increase the strength of the wing on my Moni. What I want to do is fill the wing with foam.Do any of you out there have any idea if this will work. I already know the spars will hold the load.The wing has been tested to over 6 gs.The wing failed in rotation.The spars did not fail. The reason I need the increase is I am modifying the aircraft so I can get in and out of it, I’m handicapped. The mods will increase the weight about 50 lbs to 320lbs. ROBERT B.HAUGER

Response:

I am trying to increase the strength of the wing on my Moni. What I want to do is fill the wing with foam.Do any of you out there have any idea if this will work. I already know the spars will hold the load.The wing has been tested to over 6 gs.The wing failed in rotation.The spars did not fail. The reason I need the increase is I am modifying the aircraft so I can get in and out of it, I’m handicapped. The mods will increase the weight about 50 lbs to 320lbs. ROBERT B.HAUGER

Moni?… Like in ALUMINUM sailplane? Don’t do it. Aluminum and foam do not play well together.        CORROSION develops. Barnyard BOb – ex experimental sailplane owner

Response:

says… I am trying to increase the strength of the wing on my Moni. What I want to do is fill the wing with foam.Do any of you out there have any idea if this will work. I already know the spars will hold the load.The wing has been tested to over 6 gs.The wing failed in rotation.The spars did not fail. The reason I need the increase is I am modifying the aircraft so I can get in and out of it, I’m handicapped. The mods will increase the weight about 50 lbs to 320lbs. ROBERT B.HAUGER

I’d suggest contacting the designer, many after market changes may fix one thing and and create a new even worse condition. It should be a piece of cake for Monet to do the mod.Even if it costs you a few bucks it would be worth it to have it done right.. I’m not sure what a rotational failure is, do you mean torsionally? I’m curious what failed in that case. Good luck Chuck S

Response:

I am trying to increase the strength of the wing on my Moni. What I want to do is fill the wing with foam.Do any of you out there have any idea if this will work. I already know the spars will hold the load.The wing has been tested to over 6 gs.The wing failed in rotation.The spars did not fail. The reason I need the increase is I am modifying the aircraft so I can get in and out of it, I’m handicapped. The mods will increase the weight about 50 lbs to 320lbs.

     For many reasons, I would suggest that you start with a different aircraft. The Moni is a really compelling concept in an aircraft, but it has a very troubled history.  Anyhow, I suggest that you also ask this question at rec.aviation.soaring and at this Yahoo group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Monimotorglider/ Good luck; Vaughn – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ROBERT B.HAUGER

Response:

I am trying to increase the strength of the wing on my Moni.

I would contact the designer.  I would guess that the designer has an "over-engineered" design that was optimized that might be utilized.  Without some good engineering, strengthening attempts might actually compromise the strength.

Response: